How to Train Body, Mind, and Nervous System for the Outdoors: My Conversation with Globetrotters Podcast

Adventure, Nerves, and Nature on the Globetrotters Podcast 

I recently joined Jonathan Otero on the Globetrotters Podcast for a heartfelt conversation about outdoor adventure, nervous system resilience, and what it really means to belong in nature. From learning to backcountry ski as an adult (with plenty of crashes along the way) to three-week wilderness trips in the Arctic, we talked about the joy, struggle, and lessons the outdoors offers.

We dug into how strength isn’t just about muscles, but about nervous system capacity and emotional resilience. Jonathan and I also explored the culture of outdoor recreation—everything from “bro vibes” and gatekeeping to finding more inclusive, compassionate ways of adventuring together. And of course, we swapped stories about Alaska, grizzly encounters, and why I keep returning to the Brooks Range year after year.

Topics We Covered:

• (1:30) Growing up in Alaska and finding my way into outdoor culture

• (5:14) What “mindful interval training” really means

• (8:43) Redefining strength—physical, emotional, and nervous system strength

• (15:00) Why everyone belongs outside (no matter your body or experience level)

• (26:56) How to reframe the “weakest link” feeling on group trips

• (44:53) Lessons from the Arctic: planning, packrafting, bears, and “Mountain Time”

• (59:33) What outdoor bros often get wrong—and what matters more

This was such a fun and meaningful conversation. Jonathan brought curiosity, humor, and openness that made it easy to share stories from the trail and deeper insights from my work with Mind & Mountain.

🎧 Listen on:

• Globetrotters Podcast Website

• Apple Podcasts

• Spotify

📖 Prefer to read? The full transcript is below.

Jonathan 0:00
If you're listening to the Globetrotters podcast where community and travel come together, I'm your host. Jonathan Otero, today's guest is Sarah Mel histan, a lifelong Alaskan educator and the founder of mind and mountain, a platform that blends fitness, mental health and outdoor adventure in a way that's as thoughtful as it is badass. Sarah helps people build real, embodied strength, not just to crush mountain goals, but to understand their bodies, work with their nervous systems, and feel like they belong in outdoor spaces. Sarah, thank you for being on the show.

Sarah 0:48
Thanks, John, what a nice intro. I love it. It's really great to be here with you.

Jonathan 0:53
Good and I wanted to have this conversation with you today because your platform appeals to people like me, even though I have your issues that for now, it's just catering toward towards like females, but I think you're onto something big. You talk a lot about strengthening oneself physically, but also mentally. And I think that's a part about the outdoors that isn't talked about quite enough, that mental fortitude that outdoor recreational activities can require. Can you talk about, kind of, some of your upbringing and your experiences outdoors, and how would shape the idea of mind and mountain?

Sarah 1:30
Yeah, totally. So, like you said, I grew up here in Alaska. I still live here. I love it here, but I grew up feeling like a little bit intimidated by what I saw a lot of people doing outside. My folks are from the Midwest, so, like, what we grew up doing was was pretty mild, like going canoeing and maybe on some overnight camping trips. And that was awesome. I mean, I loved that, that type of youth, but as I started to grow up into my teens and 20s, I was observing the mountain culture, where people were doing more ambitious things in the mountains. And just initially, just felt like, Oh my gosh. Who are these people? What are they doing? This is like, way above what like someone like me could ever do. But I had this, like, curiosity about it, and a like, a pull to see what this is all about, what was within maybe, could I, like, maybe do something like that? And started to dabble a little bit here and there. I got some, like, some seasonal work for the park service, building trails. And, you know, just got into a community of people who were who were playing around with backpacking off trail. And so it was like a little, just little by little, started to be around people who were doing more challenging things and wanting to challenge myself and see, see what that was all about.

Jonathan 3:02
So yeah, and I guess to be a little bit more specific here, because in the grand scheme of things, it's all relative, right? I think some of the things that you might be doing are a little bit hardcore to maybe someone like me, where I would consider myself, you know, an outdoor enthusiast. So what are these activities that people were doing that you were watching or seeing or hearing about that made you think like that person just summited this mountain or went, you know, skiing on these Alps or whatever that

Sarah 3:34
was. Yeah, the the people in the Park Service, seasonal summer, seasonal world were like working their normal jobs, like working four days a week, 10 hour days, building trails, and then, like, the day, the minute we got off of work, they would like, their backpack was already loaded from the night before. They'd like, catch a bus out into the park and go and, like, Summit, like walk off trail. There's no trails in Denali, right? So just like walking through the back country, finding, like, a technical mountain that they wanted to climb, like skiing or climbing up it with crampons and ice axes, and like doing something just

Speaker 1 4:16
like absurd, a 10 hour day, yeah? Well, after a full

Sarah 4:19
week, you know, yeah, and then spending, you know, the three day weekend, summiting this thing, or a couple of couple big mountains that, you know, some people would come with, like, spend a lifetime wanting to do, but this was just like a weekend, something they were gonna go, like, try for, and then come back down and Make it like, drag themselves back to our like, seasonal living camp Sunday night and then show up for work Monday morning. It was like, wow, okay, you can do a lot in a very short amount of time if you have the skills and the ambition and the energy for it. Maybe our listeners can

Jonathan 4:55
see, but there's a huge smile on my face because I've even picturing myself doing something like that. Like that just sounds so epic, right? One of the things you talk about is mindful interval training. What exactly is that and how does it change the way we should think about fitness?

Sarah 5:14
Great question. This has been an evolution for me, something I created after spending some time bridging I was for a while, I was working a job in a gym in small town Alaska, and working on my my master's degree in social work at the same time for mental health. And I was in these two worlds, like my day job was working on fitness with folks, and I was seeing how much their people working with their body was was bringing up their their mental health. It was like people were crying inside of personal training sessions, you know, there's, it's like bodies are very, very complex. And then I would go over to my practicum where I was learning these therapy skills, and I was recognizing how much like talk therapy could be supported by also moving your body and getting outside. And these felt like these two worlds just really needed to come together in a in a better way. And so as I started to develop my own body of work in this world, I realized that interval training, when we're when we're moving our bodies through an activation cycle into into some intensity, getting breathless, like working hard, we are replicating a nervous system cycle of activation and deactivation, and when we're bringing mindfulness to that, and instead of just like zoning out and doing it without paying attention, if we can use our interoceptive abilities to track what's happening with our heart rate, with your different muscles, where your weight balance is, and what's happening in your mind, like where your mind's going, Are you beating yourself up, or are you cheering yourself on? And when does that flip? When does that change? That we can we can practice the nervous system patterns that help us move through stress cycles inside of workouts and build like muscle memory, both in the muscles but also in the brain and the nervous system for moving through stress cycles a lot more smoothly. So it's a really cool like a lot of us exercise because we want to be strong. We want to go be able to do stuff outside. But it's like, pretty amazing when we bring mindfulness to it, how you can also train the nervous system and mental health along along the way.

Jonathan 7:39
And as you describe it. I mean, to me, it sounds like, Oh yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But obviously there's a lot of science that goes that goes into it, and for whatever reason, there's elements of yoga that kind of resonate, I think, with what you're talking about, is that, is that a fair statement to make?

Sarah 7:57
Oh yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yoga is one of the pathways that informed this work. For me, for sure, I had a really good yoga teacher who taught me that to be able to track my body while I was moving between different positions. And this shift between being like, it's not just about the pose, it's actually about what's happening inside while you're doing the pose that, like translating that into into fitness is, yeah, exactly what we're talking about.

Jonathan 8:23
And just to kind of define a few more terms here for our listeners, how do you when you think about the outdoors and how you first got involved? How would you define strength, and has it shifted since you know, you started moving more towards this, this, this other type of practice.

Sarah 8:43
Oh, man, what a good question, because it really has shifted a lot. I I'm thinking about those early years when I was like, just getting started in the in these more ambitious outdoors experiences, and was also in grad school and learning about some of these mental health strategies and the like. For example, I was like, learning to backcountry ski during this time too. And backcountry skiing is the type where you don't have a lift or anything. You're just, like, out in the mountains, and you put skins on your skis so you could walk uphill without sliding backwards. And so you have to, like, Call yourself up to the top of a mountain, basically, and then you take the skins off and you ski down, but you only get the one run, basically, because you're too exhausted to haul yourself up again the second time. So it's a hard way to learn, and it's really humbling, because if you have a tough run, or if you crash, it's like, that was your one run of the day. Or maybe you're gonna, like, gear up and go a second time. But it's, uh, it's quite it was quite challenging for me, both physically on the physical strike side, and I was like really getting these hard lessons about how much it helped to have the physical strength for going up the mountain without it wrecking me, and having enough strength to. Are used for the downhill still. So the physical strength was part of it, but then the emotional and nervous system strength was also, like, such a huge part of it, because it was really easy, especially as an adult learner, to feel like I was, like, really flailing and to, you know, as an I don't know if it's just me. I think it's pretty common for for us as adults to feel like we should be pretty decent at something that we're doing. Yeah, so I struggled a lot emotionally, and had to use, like, the whole toolbox of things I was learning inside of my social work degree at the time to help me navigate being crashing a lot, being kind of scared, sometimes, having a hard time keeping up with my friends, all of these things

Jonathan 10:47
I have to ask. What is it about you that makes you want to overcome and you know, either develop your skills in a certain sport or put up with what I mean. The way you describe it, if someone is hearing this for the first time, is pretty gruesome. It's pretty tough. Like, there's a lot of pain, there's a lot of struggle in it. What is it about you that wants, that puts yourself in those situations to want to overcome?

Speaker 1 11:14
I love your perspective. You're like, why are you still doing it? If it's

Jonathan 11:19
no this is the conversation I always have with, like, high altitude hikers. There's a lot of pain in that. And I there's this, like, 5050, there's this, like, good, bad relationship with high altitude hiking that I have where it's, like, it's two parts, equal enjoyment and just pain. And I think that's there's this thing about it that I really enjoy of putting my body and my mind through something so arduous that when I come out on the other side, it's, it's, there's very few things like it in terms of fulfillment, at least for me,

Sarah 11:53
yeah, I love this. That there's really something interesting about that for me. And it in, it has been on a little bit of an evolution too over time. I would say, at the very beginning, there was a sense that, like I was, I was kind of needing to prove to myself that I could, and it was in when I would overcome, like, make it down one of these ski runs, or have a ski run where I didn't crash like, these little micro wins felt like, yeah, they were like, that answer that I was kind of looking for, which was like, Can I, am I the kind of person who can do this hard thing and survive it and see myself getting getting better little by little over Time? Think those little wins were, were helping heal this, this like part of me that wasn't sure if I was good enough. I was like, asking this question about, like, am I enough, in a way, yeah. And then over like, I would say, over time, as that question got kind of resolved, and I started to earn like, evidence that I was good enough. And some of that was through doing some of these hard things successfully, and seeing myself get better. And then some of it was through, like doing the therapeutic work to realize that it that like enoughness doesn't necessarily come from what you do. It's like more something that you live with inside. And I started to believe that then, then I it started to move more toward like, okay, I can do these hard things and also be in, be enjoying them while it's happening, not just looking for the win afterward. Be like, enjoying the pleasure. I mean, it's really such a gift to be able to move our bodies through beautiful places and we don't always have that.

Jonathan 13:42
Yeah, and can I just say that, not to derail the conversation, but that's really underrated, and this will tie into the conversation later, but I just recently went on what I would call a pretty arduous hike, and it's been a while since, you know, I have a little five month old daughter, so it's been a while since I've been training for these types of things. And after about two miles, I was getting so exhausted, like it where my mind was trying to push through, through, like, you know, the physical pain of it. But at some point it just became physically impossible for me to keep going, because it was just I was out of shape, out of hiking shape, right? And I was excited to talk to you about it today, because this kind of ties into your workout program and and just being able to enjoy being outdoors, because that was not a pleasant activity, and you bring me back a year ago, even just a year ago, place me in that same situation. I'm not even thinking about the hike, right? I'm just looking around and enjoying the experience. So I completely understand what you're saying. And I think this also ties into my next question, where a lot of people, some people may want to spend more time outside, but don't feel outdoorsy enough. What would you say to someone that feels that way? Yeah.

Sarah 15:00
Well, I really understand that feeling, and it's something that's, it's one of the roots of, like, why I started my business, actually, because that is, it's so frustrating to me that there is the, there's been kind of gatekeeping around outdoors culture and an idea of, like, what it means to be an outdoorsy person. And this, you know, we see it modeled in people doing, like, really ambitious things and always at the top of the mountain and bodies that look a certain way. And it's, it's hard to get started in in like, building the skill set to, like, enjoy the gifts and the and the fruits of being out in nature. When you have this idea that you have to have it all dialed right away, because that's just, I mean, every just like everything, there's a learning curve, and we have to, we have to be bad at something for a while before we learn the skills to to get, get into it. So I, I'm a huge believer in the fact that anyone belongs outside, if you want to be and that nature is all around us. It's not just out in the parks and in the back country. There's, you know, the plants that I have on my windowsillar nature. And you know, it really is we can bring, we can scale down what we're thinking of as like a nature experience, and recognize that it's out in the parks and in our in our lawns and all around. But for sure, finding the the right community of people who are like, taking away the the idea of like, only the big, ambitious things count. Like, every everything counts. This would be one of the things I would say

Jonathan 16:44
that that's true. And one of the things that you have kind of on your site, that I love is that it's for all shapes body sizes. You know, everyone can be outdoors. And I've lived through some of those experiences where I did think, like very early on, that you needed to have a certain physique to be able to take on some of these, you know, challenges or obstacles. And I quickly realized that I've gone with friends that would have that, I wouldn't say a bodybuilding physique, because they didn't, but just, you know what, what you would picture someone would be having a magazine, and you take them and, yeah, they're in great gym shape that doesn't necessarily translate into outdoor shape. And I would never say I've ever had that body type that looked like I was just super, you know, slim and cut, right?

Sarah 17:37
Isn't that so interesting? I've experienced that myself during eras when I'm just doing gym stuff and I'm like, why doesn't this not translate better to outdoors? It's so frustrating. But yeah, it's, it's, you know, there's lots of different ways to be outside, I think. Like, even just thinking about you with your five month old, and like how we have to chat change our expectations for ourselves when we're in different phases of life, like you're you've got different of different focus and probably getting a different amount of sleep than you used to. And so things, things have to change alongside that. And what a just a big shift that I think we could all make inside of the outdoor rec culture is recognizing that the changes in our goals and our ambitions are is part of it, and to embrace that a little bit more than instead of thinking that we just need to be on like a straight line trajectory toward more and better all the time. That's really not how it works to be human.

Jonathan 18:37
Easier said than done, but I completely agree, totally. So how can your training regimen help boost people's confidence and physical abilities, I guess, high level?

Sarah 18:48
Yeah, I mean, I like to make the training part of it as simple as possible and accessible and like you don't have to do a ton of cross training to support your outdoor rec time, the way we have it set up inside of mind and mountain we do bodyweight workouts that you can that you do from your home or like wherever you have internet. You don't need a ton of equipment, and they're like 3545 minutes two or three times a week. And usually people start to feel the difference, like the impact of doing just a little bit of focus training in like two weeks. So that's like four or five workouts or so, you know, it doesn't have to take that much. So I like to scale down the pressure, make it as simple as possible, and try to just weave it into your regular life as much as you can so that and the goal for me is always like, I want to be able to when the weather's good, or when I get a window of time where I can go outside, I want to be able to, like, go and do it and and enjoy it. So when I'm in, like, a busy season, when I don't have a lot of time for that, or like a busy work week, I. I'm using my little gaps to squeeze in just a little bit of cross training. And as I think about it as, like, putting a little bit in the bank so that, like, when the weekend comes, I've got some training under me, and I can go out and, like, have a good day without being like, Oh my God,

Jonathan 20:15
without being an excruciating pain.

Speaker 1 20:18
Yeah, exactly.

Jonathan 20:21
And that's why I wanted to have this conversation. It's just so relevant towards where I am right now in my life that this would help someone like me, right? And I don't know if that was really the intention behind it when you first started mine and melon, but I can say that. I can attest to that as someone that would find this helpful?

Sarah 20:42
Yeah, yeah. And you mentioned earlier. So, so we do. It's women centered, but it's open to anyone. So so men and non binary folks, everybody's welcome. We're just trying to shape an environment that's a little different from, like, typical outdoor rec culture, that's like a little there's, there's kind of like a bro e quality and

Jonathan 21:02
a lot of that. Let's get into that. Let's get into that. Okay, no, yeah, yeah. What is because I might have been part of the problem at some point in my life. I'm not even going to sugarcoat it, right? But I guess, what is this like, stereotypical outdoor bro y culture, at least the way that you would categorize it,

Sarah 21:21
yeah, I think of it as, I mean, we've talked some about it. It's like, that idea that you you need to be at like, the top of your game to be good enough. Do you have to have all the great gear the body has to look just like that, like, like, super fit and slim. And the idea that, like, no pain, no gain, kind of idea that's out there inside of fitness. I mean, there's a lot of this overlaps with a lot of like, toxic wellness culture too, where it's like, if you're not, like, doing everything at 100% all the time, then you're not. You don't. It doesn't count. All this this pressure to look a certain way, to be pushing all the time, to be at the top of your game all the time. And then this i There's inside of outdoor rec culture too. There is this, often, this kind of quality of, like, dominance, where it's, it's like, I, we are, we are going to conquer the mountain, or whatever that might be. And that's a big part of what I am trying to like recreate something different, where we're working more in partnership, in relationship with nature, with outdoor spaces. This is comes from a lot of indigenous teachings, being in right relationship with the mountains and respecting them, and like being being out there with them and receiving and giving as much as like, instead of being like dominant in any way.

Jonathan 22:47
And I mean, even as you're going through those definitions, there's I can picture different parts of my life where, for sure, I am that person that you are describing right there. So I've added to that toxicity, right? And I can at least acknowledge it now, maybe a little bit less so maybe still some elements of what you're saying right then, the need to dominate the mountain. I'm not sure where that stems from, at least internally, but I think I could have at least an open conversation that there are elements of that that, for whatever reason, appeal to me for better or worse. And right now we're talking about it in terms of toxicity and and, yeah. So I guess for other people who are listening to this, that might be having that internal conflict with themselves. I mean, what, realistically, what? What do you advise to let go of the ego?

Sarah 23:34
Yeah, well, well, for what I you know, this isn't, it's not a personal thing. I'm talking more about cultural themes, and so it, I think it can really help to recognize that this is the it's like the water we've all been swimming in, in inside, it's like really normalized in, in a lot of aspects of of our culture, whether or not it's like outdoor rec specific, but we we've and then we see it inside of outdoor, the outdoor community quite often. So so if there's any, like, guilt or shame or like, any of that on a personal level, like, I'm certainly not judging you or anyone else really like that. And I want us, like each person, to think about that too and just be like, Okay, this is, this is something I learned. You know, it's like, no in innocence, no fault, correct.

Jonathan 24:23
And I, and I think the way that I even interpret this conversation is to be like, I'm all about creating inclusive spaces for everyone, and now I'm starting to think about it more in terms of like, having, when I've had these conversations, or, you know, ask people if they wanted to go hiking with me if I turned it into in the opposite of inclusive, I don't know why I'm not thinking of the word more of an exclusive experience where they can't be part of it, because of the way that I operate or approach hiking or experiencing the outdoors, which is kind of the antithesis of what I want. Create, right? So it's, it's this negative feedback loop that I'm feeding into.

Sarah 25:05
Mm, hmm, yeah. I mean, some of what you're talking about there, too is like, there are days when we have really ambitious goals and maybe you want to do something that's really challenging, and maybe that's not right for someone who's brand new to the sport, and that's a different so, so some of, I think what we're talking about is, is just being able to be really clear with our communications and have conversations about like, what we're what we're up to, and what days we you know what, what type of activities are fits for different different groups and different communities. So it's not that you can't ever do anything super challenging that doesn't work for everyone, but when we're when we're recognizing that like we're, if we're trying to generally like, add inclusivity and correct, correct into our outdoor time. Then maybe there, if there are some days that people some people can't come along because their skills aren't there, or their fitness isn't there, or it's just not something that they're interested in doing something that ambitious, then maybe we are intentionally also building in days where we meet them, where they're at and doing some stroller walks or beach strolls or going out and picking berries together. There's, you know, just remembering that the ambitious stuff isn't any better than the less ambitious stuff.

Jonathan 26:31
And that is the realization that I'm having in real time, as we're talking about, yeah, that's all I'm saying. Which which I love and I appreciate. So, you know, talking about these group experiences, or going out with people, meeting them where they are, there's people that might feel like they're slowing everyone down. How do you personally help people work through that feeling of being, quote, unquote, the weakest link?

Sarah 26:56
Oh my gosh, this is one of my favorite topics. This weakest link syndrome is something that I've struggled with personally, and a lot of the people that I work with recognize this feeling of feeling like they're the weak link. It's a big one for a lot of folks, and one of the ways I like to put it in context is by realizing that it's hitting our nervous system on a on a, like a survival level that okay, if we think about the way we evolved as humans, inside of, like hunter gatherer tribes, where we were, like moving through the country with, like following the animals, or following going to where the berries are the and that our survival was wrapped up with being able to keep up and move together, with the with the group that we were a part of. We didn't survive very well on our own back in in those days. I still don't. Well, you probably still don't, yeah, and our, I think our body knows that there's like, there's like, this memory of like, if you can't keep up with the chat, there's going to be a real problem here. And so even, like, when you're moving through on a hike and feeling like you can't, you're having trouble keeping up, there is some of that that gets flagged inside of the nervous system, of like, Oh, damn, am I, like, potentially moving into a, like, a life threat situation. So I think that's some of why it hits so hard sometimes, and helpful to know it's like. So then we can be like, Okay, so my body's having a big reaction to this situation. It's probably not actually accurate, because I'm probably, I'm not gonna, like, not survive if I get with my friends, but my body thinks I might. So then they there's some tending we can do to the nervous system to help us recognize and reorient to the actual situation that you find yourself in which most likely, you have, hopefully, you have some like, good partners that aren't actually looking back and feeling mad at you for being slower most of the time. You know, if you put yourself in a situation where you're with someone who's slower than you like, generally, I'm looking back and being like, Oh my gosh. I hope that person's having a really good time. I hope they're not feeling bad. I wonder what I can do to support them thinking about like, thinking about them with care and compassion. And that's one of the things I do when I'm in the weakest link spot, is remember how it feels for me when someone else is slower than me, and remember the care that's there rather than the judgment and frustration that I might be imagining. So like flipping positions and remembering. So there's actually this other strategy that I use that is like having an imaginary slower friend. So when I'm in the week in like, feeling like I'm in the back, sometimes I imagine that there's somebody behind me. Got it, okay? Like I put an imaginary friend back there, and I and then I that brings up my compassion and my sense of like, Oh, I hope they're having a good time too. And so then that brings it back around and find, I find it easier to apply. That to myself as well.

Jonathan 30:01
Yeah, and, you know, kind of bringing back to what we were discussing in in the previous topic. Again, at a different point in my life, I've been guilty of being that person frustrated by, let's say, the last service person I had to learn that lesson the hard way, horrific experience that, you know, shaped the way that I interact with people when we're doing these group experiences. But I love something that you said in kind of that last train of thought where it's about remembering when you were the weakest link, or, quote, unquote, the weakest link in that situation, that's able to foster empathy, because, again, I've been in situations where I'm definitely not the fastest, and it puts on this, let's say, internal pressure to keep up, and sometimes that, that can even be dangerous, right where you're kind of internalizing or not letting anyone know that? One, you're not having a good time. Two, you're stressed the hell out. And three, you're burning all your, you know, excess energy to try to keep up without ever letting know, like, Hey, give me a break.

Sarah 31:04
Man, you like you named it so well, right there. Yeah, exactly. And the way that, if you're efforting over efforting to try to keep up, you can spend the energy that you're going to need to get through the rest of the day and in a way that, like, really does put the whole group at risk, potentially. So, yeah, yeah.

Jonathan 31:24
And in, did you, I guess, in kind of some of the work that you've done, or maybe even in your personal experiences hiking with friends or being outdoors with friends, I should say, are it Do you notice that people are a little bit more forthcoming about feeling this way, that quote, unquote, weakest link, or is it just something that you've learned to detect based on body language, posture?

Sarah 31:51
Well, I have been thinking about this for quite some time, so there's but I still don't nail it all the time. And I, I'm just, you know, with your question, I'm recalling just some recent incidents where I like, Man, I could have probably handled that a little bit better, and we could have had a softer group experience around around that. So, so continues to be a work in progress, I guess. But I would say the times when it goes the best are usually, usually involve some kind of, like, setting up of the container or the the the communication about what we're doing and how we want to approach it beforehand. So some, some kind of, like, okay, we're like, in this together. Here's what we're out to do. And like, we can go at whatever pace we need to to get there, like, some, some kind of understanding beforehand that we're not gonna be mad at you if you're not, if you're moving at a different pace,

Jonathan 32:51
like laying that out beforehand, yeah. How is that received? Because maybe I'm being skeptic here and but I think of that as like, yeah, that makes sense, of course. And then you're the person that's in that position that you have to tell other people, like, Hey, wait for me. And that's where I think it gets a little bit tricky, personally, speaking,

Sarah 33:10
yeah, yeah. I mean, I think it's tricky that just is, there's, I don't know if there's any way to make it not have, like, some amount of need for, like, continued communication and tending to yourself and each other along the way. Yeah, I'm also, you know, I, I'm often the one who, like, ends up being slower so, so some of it is just through modeling and being and being like able, like model saying like, I need a break now, even if we just took one or moving at a pace that feels like a slower pace, but feels like my pace, I've gotten more and more Like confident, I guess maybe it is, and just trusting that, like, when I'm doing that, that's going to get me where I need to go at the right time, and that'll be better for the group. So some when I can model that, well, that feels like that gives other people permission to to do the same move at the pace that's right for them. But I know I'm also just thinking of this trip I was just on where we kind of messed that up one day and like somebody felt really overwhelmed.

Jonathan 34:28
Yeah, perfect, right? Yeah, perfect. And then I love this conversation, because even as you're speaking, I can kind of highlight all these times that I'll just say it I messed up, where I went into it with the trying to be intentional about how this group dynamic was going to play out. You know, of course, being very communicative that it's not about how fast we get there. It's just about getting there and, like, having a good time. And then you remember these little instances. Along the way, where it's just, you know, maybe frustration or just being human, where you look back and you're like, Oh, I could handle that one situation or discussion a little bit better, but not perfect. I'm working on it.

Sarah 35:13
Yeah, yeah. And forgiveness for all of us for that too, right? Because, like, that's, that's some of what, what we're just all navigating. It's when we're doing hard things with our bodies. It it brings up all of our different insecurities and interpersonally, you know, some of it's working touching on our attachment issues with other, with our with the groups that we're in. You know, it's like there's lots of areas that are ripe for, for getting poked at in these experiences.

Jonathan 35:44
So do you think, you know, it's the way I wanted to ask it was, Do you think it's important to let this idea go of being perfect, especially when it comes to fitness or being outside, but more so in the in I guess, really, what I wanted to ask is, do you think ego plays a lot into this self ego when you are outdoors in these group environments of, you know, kind of this self negative talk of, I'm not good enough, and that is the real challenge here.

Sarah 36:17
Or, yeah, well, I do think that is a big part of it, that that's one of the things we're kind of always asking, is, like, Am I good enough here, or do I belong? Is, Am I okay here? Whether, probably, like, not. Very often that's not conscious, that's just happening below, like, the level of conscious awareness, and then we're, we're, we're, like, testing, like, can I keep up? Okay, I'm good enough. Okay, I'm safe. Like, I'm safe. It's on the nervous system, in nervous system terms, so, yeah, I think if we're, if we're relying on those, those outer cues to help, like, answer that question for the nervous system. Oh, I like I, I guess I am safe if I, if I can keep up, or if I can not be at the back of this group, then, then we're kind of doomed, because there's times when we're just not going to be the fastest, or times when we're going to need to move at a different pace. I think that's that's some of where, for me, this nervous system work has really flipped the experience. Because instead of kind of always being in that, that question, asking like, looking to like, measure myself against other people in the groups, and always be in comparison, if to, like, get these questions answered about if I'm safe or not, that's it's been a process of learning to to orient my body toward the safety that's present all the time through and that's like the real simple stuff that we also do when we're moving through nature, about, like, looking around and noticing the trees and noticing the flowers and the beauty that's around, feeling my feet on the ground these like there's other things that keep us safe that aren't just inside of this, like always moving. Can I keep up question? And as my body started to trust that, then that question has softened a lot.

Jonathan 38:20
What are some of the challenges that someone faces when they're kind of new to this? I don't want to say new line of fitness, but just this new model of fitness coming from a more traditional like, let's say, a gym rap, for example.

Sarah 38:38
One of the what are the like challenges that they run into, yeah, yeah. The I think there is some of what we're breaking are these understandings of fitness as an all or nothing thing, as something that you have to do perfectly in order to count or to even that go all out all the time. So there's this workout perfectionism thing that is some of what, what needs to shift in order to come into this, like, softer relationship with ourselves and our bodies. And then one of the challenges for people is, is, like shifting that mentality, and instead of feeling like, like, they didn't do enough. Recognizing that when we challenge our body in this way, challenge our nervous system in this way, what we want to do is just, like, just push it to the edge and not overdo it, and then let it come down and settle and recognize that it's safe again. And then that'll build the capacity so that you can go back and do it, do it again

Jonathan 39:42
for some of like the the group experiences or trips that you've had with friends, or maybe even, yeah, yeah, let's say, with friends, are you able to kind of talk about a little bit of how you frame an experience with either your husband or a friend, to kind of practice some of these. Elements of what you're teaching.

Sarah 40:03
I am practicing this stuff all the time. Yeah, yeah, for sure, I feel like, I mean, maybe that's just the way I learn is through, like running it through my own body and my own experience, and like trying to and embodying it before I bring it out into something that I can teach effectively. But yeah, for sure, the the way I do trips these days, I'm I am trying to really be in, like, active application of a lot of these practices, and a lot of that's internal, just through, like, using all different nervous system strategies to help my nervous system recognize that it's safe even while it's doing challenging things, and then being able to settle back down out of an activation cycle when we've moved when we finished it, like, I'm thinking about, like, a tricky river crossing or something like that, where it's like, okay, that's gonna, like, bring up some adrenaline, bring up some cortisol. It's gonna require a bit of like, activation to get through it. And then once we make it to the other side, we get to, like, celebrate a little bit and like, like, have a snack, do all the things that, like, help the body recognize that it's over and we can settle and come down. And so we're kind of using that always as we're navigating different types of stressors outside and and then make making decisions to as far as, like, what challenges we're going to take on or not.

Jonathan 41:29
Are you personally, does it help having all this knowledge of how, I guess, just the biology right, of what your body is experiencing that as you describe that river crossing right, you're experiencing XYZ, and this is going to trigger these types of hormones or give me a boost of this. Do you talk to yourself like that when you're out there in these settings?

Sarah 41:50
Yeah, it's helped. It's helped so much. Honestly, it's been awesome because it and I'm not a super science dork, I like to the under, like, the basic understanding of it just a little bit. But the thing that I get most excited about is the felt, sense of it, and then understanding what that's about. So like, kind of connecting the dots between what I what I'm feeling. So like that river crossing example, I hadn't been, like, actively thinking about it in the moment, but I got to the other side of the river, and my body was just like, jet, like, totally in an adrenaline stress response. And I could, because I've been building this, this, like, this internal sense of, like, what, what's that is, I could notice it. Sometimes we're just caught in it, and we're just like, I don't know. I just feel kind of crazy right now, tons of energy, and I don't know, but I, but I started to be like, Oh, that's like, I can feel my, like, hearts beating a lot. There's like, this jittery feeling in my arms and my legs. I don't want to sit down. I'm like, still kind of want to move around. And I'm like, oh, that's the adrenaline and the cortisol, of course, like, that tracks, because we just did this, like, kind of scary thing that had some potential consequences to it. And I, my body needed that adrenaline and the cortisol to give me the focus and the mobilization to, like, stay in the moment, stay super present, and make really good decisions as we were doing that river crossing. So I'm like, Dude, that's so cool. My body did it, and we and we, like, got across. It worked. And now, of course, I'm have, I'm still in it, but i my i need to, like, help my body realize that we're done now we're on the other side, and it can discharge that extra, the excess of the cortisol, adrenaline and, like, come back down and we're safe. And that's probably going to take a little time, and I can also move a little bit while it's happening. And all these cues, like eating food, drinking water, connecting with fret, like with the group, all of these things kind of help cue the body that the stressful thing is complete. We did it, and now we can chill, yeah,

Jonathan 44:01
and that that makes a lot of sense. And even for me, right, I've put myself in some maybe sketchy ish situations where you get that adrenaline rush, that intense, narrow focus, because you know you need to focus, yeah, and then once you get to their side, there's this like feeling of exhaustion, like if you just ran like a hyper, like a ultra marathon or something, right? Just because, again, that that rush kind of exits your body. But I do want to talk a little bit about, you know, Alaska and some of your outdoor adventures. We are travel podcast. I love Alaska, at least the parts that I have seen. So let's talk about where you just got back from. You were just in the Arctic. What goes into planning a an experience like that from a gear food and managing supplies?

Sarah 44:53
I love Alaska too, so I'm really glad that you do, and it's so special up here. We are so lucky to have. Have so much wild land and space where I was out for three and a half weeks and did not cross any roads. We didn't we saw one group of people who were were friends that we knew were going to be out there at the same time. So just basically, like very little, very few humans, very little human civilization. There's, of course, people who have traveled through those areas for generations, indigenous cultures, who have lived in those areas for for a long time, but with very light touch on the land. So it feels really wild and really amazing to be, to be out there and, yeah, the preparation was has been, you know, years, years and years in the making. This is I've been traveling up to the Brooks Range in the Arctic most summers. Now I go up there for about three weeks about this time of year. So different. There's, there's like, it's always a different area, but been building the skills and the connections you kind of, like, you have to take a bush plane to get dropped off at a random airstrip out on a gravel bar somewhere. So it's like, getting to know where these spots are and how you can connect them up, and how you can get, like, resupplied. There's, there's quite a bit of like, connections with other people who have done similar things, and with the pilots and different people who know the area. And then, yeah, go ahead.

Jonathan 46:36
No, I can say. How long are you usually out there for? Is it always a fixed amount of time.

Sarah 46:42
It's worked really well for me to do three weeks or so. It's what I'm trying to do. It's like in the in early June, and I'm trying to, like, split the, split the gap between the snow and the bugs, so there's, there's like, this narrow window in there. Pro tip, yeah. And it's hard, and I kind of mess it up each year in different ways. This year, we went in a little bit early, and we had, we couldn't actually fly into the airstrip we wanted to because it was still too snowy. So we had to go to the one we were going to end at and flip directions. Go, go, do our trip in reverse, which worked out just fine. But we had to, we do have to kind of be on our toes a little bit with and then it got a little bit buggy toward the end of the trip to the mosquitoes got a little bit bad, but, but that's what we're trying for. It's a really sweet time of year, and you get to, like, watch the snow melt. Watch the it change from like snow to flowers to then like, the wildflowers are everywhere by the end, watch the migratory birds come in. And in the first couple weeks, there's like, maybe some nests that you might find, and then with with eggs in them. And then in the second week, there's maybe some a nest with like, little baby birds in them. And then by the third week, you can see like, the little birds like hopping around trying to learn how to fly. It's like, a really fun time to be in the Arctic as like you really see spring come in,

Jonathan 48:04
what is some of the most common wildlife that you encounter during those three weeks.

Sarah 48:10
So often, this area that we went to has the caribou travel through on a regular basis. So there's caribou trails, just kind of everywhere you'd want to go, and it's a specific time of year that they come through, and it wasn't while we were there, so that someday that would be amazing to actually witness, but you can see the imprint of, like, just these huge herds of caribou. They used to have, like, 10,000 or more caribou, and I've they've shrunk a lot. Now they're more in, like the I think this, this western Arctic caribou herd now has like, 1400 so it's like, it's shrunk a lot, but the imprint of them moving through the country is amazing. And then there's, like, trails anywhere you want to go, you just walk on a caribou trail. But we did see a lot of bears this time saw some muskox.

Jonathan 49:03
I'm assuming you're, you're talking about Grizzlies, or also black bears,

Sarah 49:07
yeah, this one, these were Grizzlies, and they were all really great interactions, which by that I mean they were, like, a little ways away, yeah, when we either were able to, like miss each other, and they didn't, didn't even notice us, and they just kept going about their business, or if it felt like we needed to, like alert them to our presence, once they got our scent, they just took off running, which is like a great thing. And when you're out in the backcountry, to like, know that the bears are scared of you, instead of the other way around. So really nice interactions. We even saw this, Ma, mother bear with her, with that little cub flopped down on her back in this Tundra meadow. She, like, flopped down on her backs of her bellies up to the air, and the cub crawled up on her lap. And they were like, Oh my gosh, just the cutest. I. The cutest

Jonathan 50:00
thing, yeah, yeah, no. And I feel you on having those interactions from like, a safe space, safe distance, right? Because one of my favorites was in the Banff area, like, seeing this grizzly mama bear with like, her three cubs, and just the way they would, like, run after her and kind of interact with her, it was just like, so sweet and cute. And I'm like, I'm glad that's happening over there and I'm viewing it versus, you know, coming across them, like cross trail or something like that. But have you had a maybe not dangerous encounter, but like, a sketchy encounter?

Sarah 50:33
I've been really funny wildlife? Yeah, yeah. The the sketchiest one I had was with a black bear in the in the Brooks Range a few years back, and we came across it. We are come descending a slope, and it was like, over a rollover that we couldn't see until it were, like, pretty close to it. And then when we saw it, and it saw us, we were both. We're all like, oh God. And then, but then it. The thing that was scary about it was that it was real curious, and it kind of circled so it had been below us on the slope, and it circled up, and it got up. It like circled in on us, which felt very scary. We were making lots of noise. We had our pack graph palette. We had like things we were banging together. And it still was like curious, curious circling in. But the thing that it ended fine, because the moment it got up slope, it caught us our scent again, caught our scent and the and even though it had circled in and when the second it got our scent, it was like, I'm out of here. And it failed, and took off running the other direction. So it like, got my knees wobbling. It was, for sure, nerve wracking, but it ended well,

Jonathan 51:41
what kind of security measures do you take when you're in the Arctic, whether that's carrying firearms, bear spray or nothing more?

Sarah 51:50
Yeah, it it depends on the trip. I like bear spray and have that with me kind of all the time up here, whether I'm even even around anchorage when I'm out on trail stuff, but that's what, generally, what I carry in the backcountry. But this, this last trip we were, we finished out on the Arctic Ocean, which is where the polar bears are. And the polar bears are stressed

Jonathan 52:15
these days. My knees weak just hearing you say, okay,

Sarah 52:18
yeah, yeah. It's really it's really sad because they're because the sea ice has changed so much, and they're having a harder time finding the food sources that they're used to. We've heard that it's a little harder to judge, to trust that their behavior is going to be the way that you would expect. So we had a friend with us who was retired military and really comfortable with firearms. He had a pistol with him, and that was a really nice that was really nice to have, yeah, just real assurance, right, exactly. And we never had any any tough encounters, and we didn't see any polar bears. But that's, uh, I'm okay with that.

Jonathan 52:54
Have you ever seen any polar bears? I haven't from a distance from from like the plane, or anything with bush plane, or anything like that.

Sarah 53:03
Yeah, I've seen a lot of sign when on the trips that end on the ocean, there's often sign like prints or or poop piles. But I haven't seen one when I'm out in the back country and I Yeah, I'm okay with that.

Jonathan 53:23
So let's so besides making it back safely, of course, that is the sign of any good trip. How do you classify? You know what, what your experience was like year after year? Because it sounds like you've been doing the quote, unquote, same trail for about a decade now. Is that accurate?

Sarah 53:47
It's not the same trail. It's, it's the same so I mean that the top third of Alaska is the Brooks Range and the North Slope, and there's, there's so much land there, so it's, it's going to, I've been going to different areas in that, in that ecosystem, for, for, yeah, the last 10 years, and different, different zones. It's just there's so much, yeah,

Jonathan 54:09
yeah. And I guess saying trails was really the wrong frame, wrong phrasing, framing of that question. It really meant just the zone, because, yeah, Alaska's vast, right?

Sarah 54:19
Yeah, it's so big. I know, I wish I could put that in context. Somebody should look that up. But like, the that, like, northern third of Alaska is something like four texases or something like that. It's like, really big, yeah, mess, yeah. I love it up there. It's so neat to be in that area over Solstice, when the sun doesn't set and it's just light 24 hours a day, and the the nature is just like exploding. It's moving so fast it's going to be winter soon, so it's like everything's happening at this accelerated pace. And these days, a successful trip for me. Is really in the in the experience of moving at that slow human pace for a long enough time that my, my own nervous system, kind of sinks into, I call it Mountain Time. Feels like this slower pace, slower rhythm. I can feel my whole nervous system settle. My whole body settles into like, I think it's different brain waves. They say that, like, you get into alpha brain waves state after being in the mountains for a time. But I, I love that feeling it and i i it. It feels like it, like resets me for the year. It gives me different ideas of what I want to do with my business, with my creativity and different ways of how I want to live and and I'm then I try to bring that back and figure out how to reintegrate that into into normal life. So I'm in that phase right now. And Sarah,

Jonathan 55:53
while you're out there are, do you have daily goals of where you ideally want to be or end up for the night, or is it really just at the end of these three weeks, the goal is to be there, and at whatever pace we go, we go,

Sarah 56:08
Yeah, usually we we definitely have an end goal and a place we're trying to get to, and an idea of about how many miles we need to cover each day to make that happen. It's usually fairly rough, because some days you can cover more ground because the walking is good, or the weather's good, or your energy, you know, and some days it's just not so. So it has an ebb and flow kind of quality to it, but we generally have an idea of like. We gotta keep making like about at least eight miles a day. Try to hit 10 when we can't lose something like that. It's not usually a ton of miles, because moving off trail is is fairly slow. And the we were and then we were pack rafting for a chunk of this and in our little boats that we carry in our backpacks. And so we had heavy packs, and the rivers were kind of slow, so we had to paddle a lot. So we didn't, we weren't covering, like, a ton of miles. We having to work for the miles that we that we got. So it was nice to have a goal.

Jonathan 57:10
No, I think eight miles to any, to anyone listening. It might sound as like a pretty easy task. You strap on the gear, include the terrain, tack on the days that you've already been walking those distances, and don't even bring in weather into the equation, and that that's all. That's pretty difficult, that's pretty badass. I'm not gonna lie.

Speaker 1 57:32
Yeah, I mean, it's not,

Sarah 57:34
it's not the most ambitious thing for sure. In 10 or 15 years ago, we were doing more miles, but these days, it feels really nice to move at a pace that feels comfortable, to get a full night's sleep. I'm enjoying a lot of the time out there, and less of like needing to feel like I'm pushing myself all the time. And it's felt like, like I found a nice happy medium for the stage of life, at least where there's a good amount of push and also a good amount of hanging out.

Jonathan 58:05
Sarah, you're humble as hell. I meet a lot of travelers. I talk to a lot of people. There's probably only two other people I've met in my life that have done something similar in the Arctic. So it's cool. It's badass. Just accept it before, before we let you go. We want to do our kind of famous frequent flyer fling. We're going to ask you five travel related questions about your preferences. Are you ready? I'm ready. Favorite trail snack?

Speaker 2 58:33
Okay, let's say, Oh my gosh. I'm gonna go ish,

Speaker 1 58:39
licorice, Swedish fish.

Jonathan 58:42
Oh, Swedish Fish. My wife is gonna love that answer. Most underrated mental health tool,

Sarah 58:50
the basic tool of orienting, looking away from the computer, looking at things around you, letting your senses take in the space that you're in. It's so simple, it's like, too simple. So it sounds like you're doing nothing, but it really can land in your nervous system in a big way.

Jonathan 59:08
Love it one place outside Alaska you'd go back to in the heartbeat.

Speaker 2 59:12
I want to go back to Patagonia. Interesting,

Jonathan 59:17
exciting. I'm actually going to Argentina on four days. So are you serious? Yeah, yeah. But now I've had to go in here. I wish it's more for work, but anyways, sounds awesome, though it will be. What do the outdoor rec bros get wrong? We came back to

Speaker 1 59:33
it. I yeah, they get wrong that,

Sarah 59:39
that it's it's not all about proving and accomplishing that. There's a lot to be to be learned and appreciated from the journey and from from taking it easy and taking good care of yourself along the way.

Jonathan 59:57
What place do you dream of traveling? Into the most.

Sarah 1:00:03
I know I just got back from there, but I dream of the Arctic. It's, there's nothing like it. I'd go back anytime.

Jonathan 1:00:11
Very good. I mean, I, I'm gonna put my I'm gonna say that that's on my bucket list of things to do three weeks, maybe a little too ambitious for me, but we'll throw at least a week and a half, two weeks in there, if our listeners want to learn a little bit more about you, where they where can they find you?

Sarah 1:00:28
I am on Instagram. My in my handle is my name, Sarah M his stand, and I really would love to hear if anybody resonated with what we were talking about, reach out there and send me a message. It's nice to have some interaction after these conversations. And my website is mind and mountain.co so that's where you can find our fitness and somatic work. And, yeah, anything else you want to explore?

Jonathan 1:00:51
One quick thing before we let you go. You did have a reel that went viral. Can you quickly talk about that?

Sarah 1:00:57
Are you talking about the candle, ice one. That's the most recent one. Yeah, yeah. The so in the winter, I love to ice skate, and my husband is a wild ice instructor, so we spend a lot of time out on the ice. And in the spring, the ice thaws in if you go to the right places, it thaws in patterns that look like a bunch of like pencils stacked up alongside each other, or matchsticks or something. And we went and played in this section on the lake where it was melting in candles. And you could see me in a in a dry suit, I'm standing in the lake, in the icy water and lifting up these candles. And they kind of like come out of the water, and in these shards, they look like they'd be sharp, but they're not. It's a very cool phenomenon. It's called candle ice, and there's kind of nothing like it.

Jonathan 1:01:52
And make sure you check that out. Check out Sarah's website. Reach out to her as she asks. And if you want to find out a little bit more about us, you can do so by visiting us at our [email protected], you can find us on Instagram or Facebook at Globetrotters podcast. Make sure you drop us a review on Apple podcast or Spotify if you enjoyed listening to this conversation. Editing on this podcast was done by myself. Sarah from I have to say, thank you so much for being a guest on the Globetrotters. I really love this conversation.

Speaker 2 1:02:24
You're welcome, John. It's really fun talking with you

Jonathan 1:02:27
until next time.